“Ancient Wisdom in Modern Times” – Deepak Chopra in Conversation with Sadhguru

“Ancient Wisdom in Modern Times” – Deepak Chopra in Conversation with Sadhguru


Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): It’s a real privilege to be here and what’s interesting is that both these amazing people… I hesitated for a moment before calling them
people because they have such dimensions to them. But both of them have come to this whole topic
of wisdom from very different perspectives. Dr. Chopra comes at this as a doctor, as a scientist, and
a very eloquent seeker and has sort of given us so much to think about coming at it from
a scientific basis and then moving in to many more theories and thoughts. Sadhguru comes at it as a mystic and somebody
who has been… who has sort of seen some of the unknowable and has come to us with a
whole bunch of knowledge from that angle (Applause). But essentially the three broad perspectives
they say and that’s just to set a context and then we can get into the questions is number
one they say, look you have to look at the world
through a different prism. You have to change your whole prism through
which you view your own life is a broad theme. The second broad theme if you like and it ties
all back into modern wisdom, the second broad theme is that if you were able to do
that, you would have un-immeasurable benefits for the body and Dr. Chopra has been the expert
in talking about the body and Sadhguru as well, for the mind because how you experience
life is who you are. And then that creates a ripple effect cause it makes you
better people and then you could create a better planet. So that’s theme number two. And then theme number three is to do that,
you have to do a whole lot of things. This is not something that just happens easily,
you have to go through a lot of rigorous discipline and you need a science and technology to get
there essentially. And that science and technology comes in the
form of yoga, in different forms of yoga, different forms of Inner Engineering and self-enquiry,
self-knowledge, self-discipline and so on that Dr. Chopra talks about. So there is many, many
techniques. So these are three broad themes. Have has your own thinking changed over the last… I mean you both have been talking about variations of this topic for a very long time.
Could you just tell us, has that changed a lot? Can you both take that question? Dr. Chopra: First of all thank you for that amazing
invocation. You really created the atmosphere here. And it’s a great honor to meet you again
Sadhguru after all these years. I remember playing Frisbee with you in Puerto
Rico (Sadhguru Laughs) and of course Dr. Jayaraman one day I will be like you. Okay (Applause). So yeah my thinking has changed in the sense
that when I started moving out of main stream so called scientific thinking, I was trying to establish
in my mind, the connection between mind and body. And over the last four decades I have realized
(Laughs) which has been obvious to great sages throughout the year… throughout the centuries,
that there is no system of thought that can access truth or reality. Whether it’s scientific system of thought
or mathematical system of thought or these days we talk about quantum physics, none of
these systems of thought can give us the experience of reality because reality is beyond thought.
Reality is inconceivable to the mind. These systems of thought, even scientific systems
of thought create models of reality, not reality, but models of reality. And we have faith in them because once we
understand the model, we can create technology. So we can create jet planes and bombs and mechanized
death and internet and all the wonderful things. So we think science gives us access to reality
but even science is an activity in something that is not mind, that is not matter, for lack of a
better word it’s a field of awareness. What… what the great sages called Brahman
and the universe is a modified form of that. Your mind, your body and the universe out
there is all conceived, constructed, governed and the becoming of a non-local inconceivable
dimensionless reality which is not in space and time. Now this is very difficult for the modern
person to grasp, okay? But it’s actually part of the… since we
are talking about ancient wisdom traditions, if you read the Yoga Vashishta, it says that which cannot
be seen but without which there is no seeing. That which cannot be perceived but without
which there is no perception. Cannot be imagined but without that which there is no
imagination, creativity, insight, intuition, choice. Everything that we call reality comes from
an inconceivable dimensionless non-local domain which is not in space-time. So you know when Lord Krishna talks about it, water cannot wet it, wind cannot dry it, weapons cannot shatter it, fire cannot
burn it, its ancient, its unborn, it’s not subject to death. Now that’s inconceivable to the mind but its experiential
when you settle into awareness, when you settle into being, when you settle into existence.
What is called Sachitananda, or Tatvamasi. And you saw the video where he expressed
his experience. That’s not an intellectual experience that
is a transcendent experience. I’ll stop there (Applause). Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Sadhguru,
you come at it from knowing, tell us how your own thinking has changed, how your
knowledge has changed. Sadhguru: I mean I cannot say much about thought,
because I don’t have much thought (Laughter). This may be… this may sound like an oxymoron
for people, but the fact of the matter is most of the time I don’t have any thought in me. For me, the phenomenon of life that’s happening
within me always overwhelms everything else. Thought occurs to me only when I want to physically
do something, arrange something around me otherwise days on end will pass for me without
a single thought. So maybe I never grew up (Few laugh). In a way yes, because when it comes to…
people ask me, “What has been your sadhana?” My only sadhana has been that right from my
childhood, I never got identified with anything. Either the family, or the culture, or the religion,
or the society, or various other things happening around you including your parentage, your siblings, I was
involved with them but never identified with anything. If human intelligence does not tie itself down with
identity, every human being will realize the nature of life. Human intelligence is capable of figuring this. When I say intelligence as Deepak pointed out,
it’s beyond the thought process. Unfortunately because of the type of education
systems we have today, we are completely committed to one dimension of our intelligence which we call as
the intellect, which is just the thought process. Thought can only happen with the data that
you have gathered through five senses which is very limited, one thing. Another thing is, the nature of data that the senses gather are only useful for survival process. The very nature of how you see things, how you hear,
smell and taste and touch life is only relevant for survival process. If you wanting to
know the life itself, then these instruments of perception are no good.
Even what is light and darkness is a debate between you and another creature which sees
darkness as light, isn’t it? If you sit with an owl and start an argument
as to which is light and which is darkness, it’s an endless argument but who do you
think is right? Hello? If you are saying both, you are either in the
diplomatic corps (Laughter) or… or you have a successful marriage
(Laughter & Applause). If… (Laughs) You have learnt to say both… both
but which is the truth? What I see is the truth or what the owl sees is the truth? That’s not the point, it is just that nature has opened up
our sense perception as it is necessary for our survival. Accordingly it has opened up sense perception for
different creatures as it is necessary for their survival. But if survival is all you are seeking, this is
good enough – the five senses. But once you have come as a human being, somehow
survival is not good enough. If your stomach is empty it is only one issue about food,
but once the stomach becomes full, you have a hundred issues going on (Few laugh). So the nature of the human being is such
no matter what you do, you want to be something more than
what you are right now. And if that something more happens, something
more, something more… it’s an endless pursuit. So somewhere, a human being is seeking a limitless
expansion but trying to do it with physical means. The very nature of physicality is a defined boundary. If there is no defined boundary, there is no possibility
of physical happening in the universe. But now a human being is longing for the boundless
that too in installments (Few laugh) and through physical means. Through the boundary, you are trying to become boundless. The desire is fantastic, the method is hopeless
(Laughter). Because the moment you identify yourself with
something, your intellect’s work is just to protect that identity. If you… whatever the identities of nation, or family,
or gender, or race, religion whatever, the moment you identify yourself with something, your
intellect will only function around that to protect that. So it is a certain type of prejudice,
the moment you are identified. So the only thing I did with my life is, I
never identified myself with anything and life just exploded within me in ways that
thought seems so puny, that I do not indulge in thought most of the time (Few laugh) (Applause). Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): You know,
what you are saying for all of us here in some way, shape or form, we all pride ourselves on
thinking human beings, this is a tough pill to swallow. Sadhguru: Thinking… thinking is just recycling
of the data that you have already gathered (Laughter). Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): So, what
is the leap of faith that you go from this… from this perspective of thinking and thoughts
to we don’t belong to anyone, you know, we are not identified with any instrument,
with any sort of localness. And I know both of you have spoken about that. Sadhguru: The thing is… this is not something
that people will not get. They will get this, this is not some great
teaching I am telling you. If you get it right now in your life, your life will transform
in ways that you can’t imagine possible. Otherwise, someday you will get it from the
maggots (Laughter). You will understand you don’t belong to anything. So your… the entire culture of what is…
what you are calling as Bharath is about vairagya. The word vairagya means- rag means color,
vairagya means beyond color. But if you say colorless in English language,
it is a very negative connotation of being colorless. Let’s put it as transparent, because it’s transparent,
it can take on the color of anything right now. Right now if my background is red, I am red; if it’s yellow, I am yellow. I am picking the colors from you, okay. Participant: Thank you, thank you I appreciate
that (Laughter). Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Well blue
and gold aren’t bad either. (Sadhguru Laughs) Doctor, do you have something
to add to that? Dr. Chopra: Just to elaborate on what he said. You are listening to us here, now just for a moment,
turn your attention to who or what is listening. What you experience is being, right?
Another word for awareness or existence. It’s not a thought, thought is what creates
the subject – object split. Being is all there is and being is not a thought. So as even now if I asked you are you aware?
That’s being. Now everything else is just a modulation of that, it’s a
feeling or a thought or a sensation or a perception. We call that the mind, we call that the body,
we call that the universe but all there is, is being and its modulations. Because what you experience as sensations,
images, feelings and thoughts, and then you say, “Oh, that’s a tree, that’s a body,
that’s a universe, that’s a rock.” They are just different combinations of being
and its modulations. So… Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Did you
all understand that? Participant: Thoda sa… (Speaks in Hindi) Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Thoda sa…
some. It’s a very, and I think this is part of
the complexity I think we all struggle with… Dr. Chopra: Because you try to explain it in with words.
But again as you are listening turn to who is listening? Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): And I think
Dr. Chopra the interesting question is and… Sadhguru this is for you as well, essentially
what we are doing in this whole process of asking, all of us to change the prism is you are
essentially asking us to experience it, in some way. Dr. Chopra: And he said the mistake of the intellect,
it’s the mistake of the intellect that there is separation between observer and observed. Because the observer and observed as mind and body
are a single holistic activity of the total universe. Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): And if you
go back I think in the earlier session, there was quotes from the Gita and I know you all…
you have spoken about that as has Sadhguru about… Sadhguru: I have not. Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Not… not
now but… Sadhguru: Not anytime. Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): But basically. I am
sorry then it was Dr. Chopra, you had spoken about the different forms of the… on the different forms of yoga
that is then, the Raja Yoga, the Bhakti Yoga, the path of devotion and we know that it’s been
spoken about in the Gita. So what’s so difficult, what is the barrier
that people haven’t seen it yet? It seems in a way it’s an experience, it seems you know
it seems obvious at one level and it’s yet very difficult to grasp on the other. Could you just talk to us about what the barriers are? Dr. Chopra: For some of us who are brought
up, educated in a scientific world view or in a world view that emphasizes recycled information
as he said or all of that, it’s very difficult to intellectually get to being. Because we identify as he said with our perceptual
experience, with our intellect, with our mind, with our ego, identity, so it always seems a struggle
till one day you stop struggling and you’re there. And as he said he never identified with anything. Once you identify with the thought or with the perception
or with what you think as a knowing or a sensation or an emotion, then you are in time.
Thought is in time, but being is not in time. Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Sadhguru
your thoughts? Sadhguru: I mean… (Laughs)
I am completely spiritually uneducated. I don’t know from where I have quoted, I have not quoted
generally except the grandmother Gita that’s around us. I have to admit that I have neither read the Gita nor the
Vedas nor the Upanishads, nor even the Yoga Sutra. I have never studied anything.
The most profound literature that I read… I read English literature just for fun because
I like the language. Otherwise the most profound stuff that I read
is Asterix (Laughs). Dr. Chopra: As what? Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Asterix. Asterix comics, yeah. Sadhguru: Because why I am saying this is,
I have… this is the… this is what it is. For example, a modern scientist is trying
to deduce mathematically deduce the reality. Everything has to fit in to his math and he will
deduct everything and say the entire universe is one. But it’s not in his experience. A religious person will say
god is everywhere, so everything is one, but it’s not yet in his experience, he believes. One is deducting… making deductions,
another is believing. A yogi is a hard nut who doesn’t believe anything, who
doesn’t want to deduce anything unless it becomes real within him, it’s not real for him.
So because of this approach, I… I never found the need to read anything spiritual. If I read something it may be news magazine or
literature or something else, but never anything spiritual because I never wanted to clutter my own
clarity with anything outside. And the only thing… the only and only thing
I know is, I know this piece of life from its origin to its ultimate and that’s all;
because you know this piece of life, by inference you seem to know everything else. Today there is a certain theory coming out
which is called as the constructional theory, what they are trying to say is whether you
take an amoeba or a human being, whether you take the atomic or the cosmic, the fundamental design is same. It is just the sophistication and the complexity
is multiplying. So if the fundamental design is same, if you want
to know the entire universe, you just have to know this. And this is the only thing that’s available to you,
accessible to you. When I say this is the only thing available
and accessible to you, see right now you believe that you can see me sitting here.
But that’s not the fact of the matter. The fact is light is falling upon me, reflecting,
going through your lenses, inverted image in the retina… you know the entire story. So if you see
me, you see me only within you. If you hear me, you hear me only within you. Whatever ever happened to you, light and darkness
happens within you, pain and pleasure happens within you, joy and misery happens within
you, agony and ecstasy happens within you. Right now, if I touch your hand, you think
you are experiencing my hand. No, you are only experiencing the sensations
in your hand. Or in other words, the entire human experience
is happening within you. The very seat of your experience is within you. What is happening within you, at least you
must be able to determine. What is happening within you must happen the
way you want it. If what happens within you happens the way
you want it, suddenly your ability to create what you want to happen in the world, also
is tremendously enhanced. Not because you know the world,
because you know this. This is why realization was held as the biggest thing. You must understand its realization, it’s not an
achievement, it is not an attainment, it’s a realization. Realization means it’s always there. I was stupid enough
not to see it, suddenly one day I saw it. That’s what realization means (Laughs). Never, we said any inner things are accomplishments
or achievements, they are not any kind of peak climbing. It’s just a realization, it’s always been there. It was always been there to… see… sorry
everybody is quoting Gita, let me also quote (Laughter). At some point it seems Arjuna asked, I don’t
know it’s been… whether made up by somebody, it’s really in Gita, please correct me if
it is so… it seems Arjuna asked that “Where is this truth that you are talking about? This un-intangible, unperceivable truth where is it?” It seems Krishna laughed and said
“It’s at the tip of your nose.” Now there are many schools of yoga which are intensely
focusing on the tips of their noses and getting headache (Laughter). Try and see (Laughs) (Applause). What… What he is trying to say is, it is the most
obvious thing. The most obvious thing, if you pay attention
to your existence, not to your thought, not to your emotion, not to the arrangements of
life that you have made around you. If you pay attention to the nature of your existence,
it is the most obvious thing. “It’s at the tip of your nose,” is a
metaphor in India that it is the most obvious thing. But by focusing on the tip of the nose, enlightenment
will not happen, headache is guaranteed (Laughter & Applause). Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): So picking
up on Sadhguru’s point, Dr. Chopra, so what is scientific enquiry in this… with this construct
which is hey, it’s realization, it is a knowing and what… what and so two questions… Dr. Chopra: Okay so… because Sadhguru is
one of the few lucky ones I have… I have known two other people who said what
he said, that thank god I never read anything. One was Maharishi Mahesh Yogi; he used to
always say “Thank god I never read anything because it would have cluttered my mind.” And the other was Krishnamurthy, he would
say the same thing. And that you know the more you read, the more
you clutter your mind and he also would say, “I have never read anything.” So that’s… that’s unusual, he happens to have fallen
into existence because he fell into existence, okay? Or awareness or whatever you want to call it, being.
I was not. I struggled, okay? I’d read all the scientific literature, medical literature,
psychology, Jungian psychology I read, the Bhagavad-Gita, every single translation I read, Rig
Veda, I read Yoga Vashistha, I read Kashmir Shaivism… Sadhguru: I should come to you… Dr. Chopra: Vedanta, all of that. No you shouldn’t, your
mind will get cluttered (Laughter). Sadhguru: No, at this stage in my life I also
want to know what they said in the past (Laughter). Dr. Chopra: Yeah, they said what you are saying.
I mean they said exactly what you are saying. But for me as a person who had been trained to look at
things scientifically, it was both a struggle and a need. You know, because reality is not a map and
yet science gives us maps. The Yoga Vashishta gives us a map, Patanjali
gives us a map, the Bhagavad-Gita gives us a map. Some of us need maps, okay? If I am going from here to Boston and you
give me a map, a road map or a contour map or a sea map or an air map, and I take the
road map and I get to Rhode Island and it works. Sadhguru: Now, now I get this. I think the reason why I didn’t read the maps is,
I met someone who was a GPS (Laughter & Applause). Dr. Chopra: That’s good. But GPS is also a map right? Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Sadhguru,
I thought you said GPS is a Guru Positioning System, your term (Laughter). Dr. Chopra: So once you use a map and it works for…
the map seems valid from here to Rhode Island, then I assume for me who has not had this
experience of falling into the place of no thought; then I say you know, if the map is working up to
here maybe it works from here to there as well. So it’s a kind of a psychological validation. And I’ll just stop in a moment but for the
last ten years at our center when we teach people to sit in reflection, contemplative self-enquiry, or
transcendence, or take them through what we call the wheel of awareness, Vipassana, or body-awareness or awareness inside the body, or awareness in mental space. We have been doing it now for twenty-five
years, but last five – ten years we have been able to look at the brain, we have been
able to look at gene expression, we have been able to look at cell markers of aging, telomerase,
telomere length. We have been able to look at what are called
inflammatory markers, in other words everything that’s happening in the body at a biological cell level. 23 000 genes, 3.3 million bacterial genes
– actually your body is more bacteria than it is human cells – it’s a micro-biome. So we are looking at those genes and then
we are looking at what is called the epi-genome which is the shell of proteins outside the
genome and how these work together. And what we are finding is remarkable. You know in the beginning nobody would believe
us, but now we have collaborations with Harvard, UCSF, UCST, scripts with Digital Technology,
with Duke University, with Mont Sienna. We can look at a blood sample and we can tell
you just by looking at the blood sample and the gene expression if you are experiencing
samadhi occasionally or not, if your mind is quite or not. If you are falling in to the place where he… Sadhguru: Even whether our parents experienced
this (Laughs)… Dr. Chopra: Parents too. In fact the epigenetic
shows that your experiences, your experiences now which are not in
your brain by the way, everybody says my experience is in my brain,
it’s not in your brain, your experiences are not in your body, your experiences are in a
non-local consciousness which is not in space-time. But whatever, that’s a whole different discussion
– but we can now, in fact our collaborator… this is a joke actually but it’s to tell you where science is. One of our collaborators who is Eric Shaw
here in Mont Sienna, he does genomic expression, he does RNA transcription, he looks at what is
called the transcriptome; and he showed a slide he says this is a genetic signature of
people who are experiencing samadhi. And these are people that he had studied at our center. So somebody asked him in the audience, they
said “Dr. Shaw, do you meditate?” He said “No!” He says, “Are you going to learn?” He says, “No!” He said, “But you just showed us the signature,
the genetic signature of somebody who does?” He says, “Yeah, but I’ll figure out how
to make a drug out of this” (Laughter). Sadhguru: So what Deepak is saying is if you…
if your children are brats, it’s you (Laughs) (Laughter). Dr. Chopra: Yes, it is you. It is you. Seven generations…
you know, in Hawaii they have these temples and cow farms.
If a cow has been zapped electrically, the next generation of cows would not go to the fence. They already know it’s electrical and they
might get shocked (Applause), okay? Then the following generation… Now people have done experiments right here
where you take mice and you have them smell winter green which is a very pleasant smell,
then they get mild electrical shocks. The next seven generations of mice will be
scared by smelling winter green. So this is the first window that’s opening
into what we call sanskaras or vasanas. You know where you have two identical twins
and they have the same genome. In fact exactly the same genome, but they
are not the same people right? They have different… mother will tell you
that they have different personalities. Where is the seat of this personality,
where is it coming from? This is why science opens the window to what
people already knew actually in our tradition (Applause). Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): And it’s
interesting that even if science opens the window and I think both of you have said it in
different ways, that it’s just a very small you know it’s still like boiling the ocean in
a kerosene stove. Because science can only go so far because there
are so many forms of knowing and so many forms of seeing as you have said.
So it’s a challenge I imagine… Sadhguru: Even science is a series of realizations, okay?
I mean science is not outside of this. Science has evolved because of series of realizations
but happening in small spurts. Not grasping the entirety of it, but in bits and pieces
realization, and realization, and realization. That’s what it is. We say he discovered something but what it is, is he observed something, he realized that this is the way it works,
some aspect of it. And knowing the physical dimension of how it functions,
allows you to do many things with the physical world, which you see in the form of technology today. Dr. Chopra: Very important thing though. But science has now brought us to what we
call the portal or the door of the sub-empirical. And the sub-empirical is less than 0.01 percent
of the unmanifest which is scientifically unknowable, not unknown – unknowable.
Because how do you measure something that is totally unmanifest. It’s not in space-time, okay? So once you get beyond… you know I think
if I can elaborate on this for just one minute, the two most open questions in science today,
there are hundred and fifty open questions. But the two most open questions – number
one is “What is the universe made of?” And the answer is we don’t know because
ninety-six percent of the universe is invisible, what they call dark energy, dark matter, but it’s not…
those are words; they don’t know exactly what it is. One is expanding the universe, one is contracting
the universe Darker ninety-six percent, that means four percent
of the universe which is atomic. Of that four percent, 99.99 percent is invisible interstellar
dust which hasn’t become stars and galaxies. So the visible universe which is all the galaxies, the
billions of stars, the trillions of planets is 0.01 percent. Now that 0.01 percent which is made of atoms,
is made of particles, but particles when you are not looking at particles, or when they
are not interacting with other particles, they disappear, they become waves. So
what’s the universe made of? Nothing! And this is a scientific fact. The second open question is where does
consciousness come from? And scientists are struggling because they
think consciousness is a production of the brain. Just like you know bile is a production of
your gallbladder or acid is a production of your stomach, pancreatic juice is made by your
pancreas, Oh! So consciousness made by the brain. So they keep struggling. This is called the
hard problem of consciousness. Sadhguru mentioned photons.
Okay this is the hard problem. This… I’ll just stop in one second but right now
you are looking at this… this is blue, this is red, you are seeing this beautiful shirt. What’s coming to your eyes are colorless photons. What’s going to your brain is an electrical current. What’s happening in your brain is chemistry. You are not experiencing chemistry or
electrical currents. You are experiencing a three-dimensional reality
in space-time. No one knows how that happens. So they keep struggling and struggling. If I ask you to imagine a beautiful sunset
on the ocean… do it right now, you see a picture. There is no picture in your brain. So you know
the fact that the brain produces consciousness is just an idea, nobody has ever proved that. Consciousness is not in the brain, the brain
is in consciousness, the body is in consciousness, the mind is in consciousness, the whole universe
is in consciousness (Laughs) and you cannot get it through a system of thought (Applause). Sadhguru: What to further you know, make it
into an experiential process, what Deepak said just now, you obviously cannot access
it with thought process because thought is an accumulation, accumulated information which
you are recycling according to your convenience. Right now, our ideas of who we are, or what
I am and what I am not, is determined by this. If you just do this simple experiment right now. Take your right hand and touch your left hand,
please all of you, can you do this? Is that you? Is that you?
Yes. Just touch the chair on which you are sitting.
Is that you? No, who is this (Laughter). Now in your experience, this is me and this is not me.
The basis of this experience is coming from this. Where there is a sensation, you think it’s me.
Where there is no sensation you think it’s not me. Right now, the water in the glass is not you,
but if you consume it, it becomes you. And these whatever number of kilograms you carry
right now all this was all over the planet, and today it’s me (Few Laugh). The air that you breath,
what is not you is becoming you, the food on your table, what is not you is becoming you right now. This moment
what is not you in a couple of hours it becomes you. So your experience of myself is basically
the boundaries of your sensation. The nature of the boundaries of sensation are such,
if you allow your life energies to be in a certain level of exuberance, you will see the
boundaries of your sensation will expand. You can just know this just by rubbing your
hands and holding it like this (Gestures), you will see something begins to happen
between your hands. There are sensations transmitting between
the two hands. Or if you have been very joyful or ecstatic at a certain
moment, you will see sensations seem to be all over the place. If you create a certain system
within you, where your life energies are kept in a certain level of exuberance, then the sensory body will expand. If the sensory body let us say became as big
as this hall, then you will experience everything in this hall and everybody in this hall as
a part of yourself, like you experience the five fingers of your hand as yourself right now. So what is referred to as Yoga is; the word
Yoga means union. That means you experience the entire universe
as yourself. This is happening, because you are in a such
a state of… you have found a mechanism by working with the body, by working with the
mind, by working with the emotion and energy, you have set up a step by step system within
yourself where your energies are kept at such a level of exuberance, that your sensory body
is as large as the universe. So if you sit here, you experience the entire
universe as myself. Once you experience everybody around you as
yourself, then I don’t have to tell you don’t kill this person, don’t rob that person, don’t harm
this… all morality will be useless for you because you have experienced everything as myself. You don’t have to try to be good,
your goodness is a consequence, your goodness is not an effort (Applause). Dr. Chopra: What… what he says, he is saying
it experientially, okay? But the fact is if you ask scientists are there any
boundaries in the universe, they’ll tell you there isn’t. Every boundary is notional or perceptual and
we don’t know how perception occurs anyway. So boundaries are conceptual ideas.
There are no boundaries in the universe. There are no boundaries to your skin, in fact your…
what he said that your body is the entire ecosystem. It’s not only the entire ecosystem of the
planet, the carbon, the hydrogen, the oxygen, the nitrogen came from galaxies. So the carbon in your finger nails and the
hydrogen in your eyes or the oxygen in your blood, could have come from different galaxies. You are the total universe at this moment
a pattern of behavior in space-time and before I say Jack Robinson, you are a different activity anyway. There is no permanent activity as a noun,
you are not a noun you are a verb. And the verb is the (Laughs) activity of the
total universe. I… you know the most… the most frequent
word we use is I. So I say “Where are you?” You say “I am here.” Okay and so I… then I can ask you okay,
“You are here, but where am I?” You say “You are there.” You see where is the “I” in you experiencing seeing me?” I do this with neuroscientists, and they will
say “In my eyes.” They say your eyes are this big (Gestures), they are
nine centimeters apart, the retina is curved by the time light gets into your
retina its inverted, you should be seeing two of me about this size (Gestures) upside
down, nine centimeters apart. You are not having that experience, then they
point to the brain and you know, “How do I fit inside your brain, how does this room
fit inside your brain, how does the whole world fit inside your brain?”
There is no answer for this in science by the way. Rumi, there is a beautiful poem – look at
your eyes they are so small, they see enormous things. So where is the “I” that is experiencing
this conversation right now. Where is it? It’s in… it’s the wrong question.
It has no location in space or time. That is who “I” is.
And the whole universe is in “I” (Applause). Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): So let’s
just wrap up this segment of the discussion. If you had ten billion dollars to spend on scientific
exploration or giving experiences to people to better… to get their own path of realization,
where would you spend it? Both of you, I want individual answers, ten
– twelve words or less. Dr. Chopra: The answer is… the answer is…
okay, the answer is obvious – experience. But I would have a problem with that because
I work with scientists. I am going from here to a conference on science.
I need to be able to talk to my peers, okay? So while the answer is experience and experience
doesn’t cost ten billion dollars, I would probably go science just because I am still
struggling with my scientific peers (Applause). Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Sadhguru? Sadhguru: The experience has not become wide
spread because there is no infrastructure, neither physical infrastructure, nor human infrastructure. For example, in this country hundred-and-fifty years ago,
they tell me over ninety-four percent of the people were illiterate. Today, hundred percent literacy.
How does it happen? Because somebody built the school room, somebody
trained the teachers. That infrastructure for inner experience has
been wiped out through… in the last few centuries. So how do you expect it to happen? One guy talking
here, one guy talking there is not gonna make it happen. What should be a part of our life from the
day we start, because the nature of human intelligence is such, that if you don’t mess it up with
belief systems, every human being will find it. Too many concepts, too many ideas, too many
belief systems – human intelligence is corrupt from the beginning. If you do not corrupt human intelligence, just leave it.
Every human being is capable of knowing this. It is not some super human thing. The most important thing to remain is… remember
is, this yoga, this spiritual process is not about becoming super human, it is about knowing
that being human itself is super (Applause). Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): What is
your definition of success? Dr.Chopra: Success is the ability to love
and have compassion. Success is to some people the progressive
realization of worthy goals. Success ultimately is knowing who you are. Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Sadhguru? Sadhguru: If you can be blissed out no matter
what’s happening around you, if you can be involved and still not be affected by what’s
happening around you, not by removing yourself, you are absolutely involved but untouched
by the process of life; I think that’s success (Applause). Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Second question.
Where we’ll go little bit into the world… world space. If… what advice would you give Angela Merkel
today, compassion or sovereignty? Dr.Chopra: It’s obvious – compassion.
There is no such thing as sovereignty. I think all nationalism is a sophisticated
form of tribalism. I think your essential being has no religion,
nor race, no gender, no assumed identity. It’s pure consciousness.
So obviously I would say compassion. Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Let them
all in _____ (Unclear). Sadhguru: Being a… a very…a big economic
force what she is managing right now, I would say if they do not invest in conflict, we won’t even need
their compassion. People will be fine by themselves. You should stop investing in conflict. People… I have heard people going to Sudan and trying
to stop conflict there, conflict here, leave all this. You know who is supplying the guns; you know
who is supplying the ammunition. Every day you see these terrorists or whatever
shooting in the sky. Obviously there is no dearth for ammunition, isn’t it? They are not even shooting at the people.
They have lots of it, they’re shooting the sky! So obviously someone is continuously supplying. We know where it is manufactured, I will give
you the addresses if you want (Laughter). Just stop it! Stop the supply (Laughs) of ammunition. You can’t take away the guns, all right,
you can take away the ammunition. At least hacking down people, they will get tired at least. Right now, there is powerful mechanisms to do this. So if you do not invest in conflict, if you do not invest in
creating problems in the world, we will not need your compassion (Applause). Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): And as a final
question, if there are… there is a saying or an affirmation that we could all
use in our everyday lives, as we all progress in our quest whatever that quest is, what
would that be? What would you advise to each one… what each
one hold would you like to share with us. Dr. Chopra: Might seem very banal.
Take it easy (Laughter). Easy come, easy go. That’s my epitaph. Sadhguru: There is no need to believe or
disbelieve anything. What you know you know, what you do not know,
you do not know. If this one thing comes into every human being,
everything will run smoothly around us. Ms. Chandrika Tandon (Moderator): Thank you
both (Applause). Ladies and gentlemen, let’s give a very
big hand to Sadhguru and Deepak Chopra.

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